After 22 years, I am ending my relationship with Popular Woodworking Magazine. My contract runs out at the end of November 2018, and I have informed them I will not renew. Working at Popular Woodworking was the best job I ever had. So it was a difficult decision that took months of thought.
The internet being what it is, I decided to write this blog entry so that when the rumors begin, there is also this blog entry. Let’s structure it as a FAQ.
Why are you leaving?
There are several reasons. No. 1 is Lost Art Press. John and I have grown this business to the point where it is difficult to manage Lost Art Press in addition to writing six feature articles a year and (at minimum) 104 blog entries a year for Popular Woodworking.
No. 2 is that the magazine is changing. All magazines change; they have to in order to survive. Many of the changes I’ve observed are dismantling the things I fought for during my tenure there. It feels weird to be part of that, honestly. So I thought it best to step aside.
My leaving is not a condemnation of their work. I’m not asking you to cancel your subscription or write hate mail to the editor. Please don’t. Evaluate the magazine on its own merits and whether the articles are helpful to you – not whether or not my name is in the masthead.
Were you fired or pressured to leave?
No and no. The management there has only been supportive of my work at every turn. My contract comes up for renewal at the end of every calendar year. They asked me if I was going to renew, and I said no.
Did they try to tell you what to write?
Never. That’s why I’ve stayed with them for so long. My leaving is not the result of editorial pressure. Period.
Will you write for other magazines?
Maybe someday. After 22 years with a magazine that I adore, it would feel treasonous (or at least tacky) to jump in bed with another magazine. This change in my life has nothing to do with moving to another publication. My hope is to take a few years off before thinking about this topic.
What will you do instead?
I’ve bought a CNC machine, opened a YouTube channel and have secured sponsorships from a dozen makers of tools and fashionable workwear (no, I haven’t done any of these things). Instead, I plan to teach a few more classes per year at our storefront. And work on reducing my backlog of furniture commissions, which is at 12 months right now.
Won’t this hurt your career or reduce your exposure?
Probably. But that’s the price for reducing my workload.
Does this have anything to do with Megan Fitzpatrick or Brendan Gaffney?
To be certain, I wasn’t happy that they fired Megan and treated Brendan poorly. They’re good friends. But it wasn’t the primary or secondary reason (see the first question above).
What will happen to my blog at Popular Woodworking?
I don’t know. It’s their property. They can fold it into their main blog, delete it or hire another simian-looking guy named Christopher Schwarz to continue it. All that content (since 2005 for gosh sake) belongs to them and is theirs to use.
One last question. This one is for you: Could you do me a favor and not trash the magazine in the comments below? I personally hate reading those threads, no matter whose magazine is getting trashed. Otherwise, I’ll try to answer any non-ridiculous questions.
— Christopher Schwarz
104 thoughts on “You Might as Well Hear This From Me”
You mentioned a change in direction of PW. Is there a concise way to describe that?
If you pick up a magazine today vs one from a few years back, the changes should be obvious – both in terms of the actual look/feel (paperweight, cover design) as well as the editorial content. It is becoming more mass market – which one could argue is more aligned with the name “Popular.” Chris had moved it in more of an ‘academic journal lite’ type direction, with deeper dives into historical techniques, etc.
That does not make the new direction “bad”, just different. I pick up Wood magazine from time to time, and even though it is really geared to a mass market I think they do a nice job hitting their target.
Think American Woodworker meets….American Woodworker. I subscribed to both. Still keeping the pop wood sub for now.
It’s always tough evaluating the rags. Their nature is to meet timely topics. Our nature as people is to grow and evolve. Did the rag leave me behind, or did I leave it? This is the question I ask whenever renewal time comes. Lord knows I’ve pissed 25 bucks away with nothing to show for it plenty of times. 🙂
Put simply, they’re chasing the same crowd that follow less-than-traditional YouTube ‘woodworkers’ like Steve Ramsay. The re-brand looks cheap and nasty, and the content is getting dumber.
It’s a really dumb business decision, as the crowd they’re chasing don’t spend money on magazines, instead they watch free YouTube videos and spend their money on cheap and nasty power tools from Harbor Freight. It’s clearly a decision to try and appease advertisers, but I think it’s a very poorly thought out one.
Good luck Chris in this new phase in your career! I know it wasn’t an easy decision.
Well said and completely understandable.
So it goes…..
Glad you were a part and glad you moved on. I was just talking with my old editor in chief of a newspaper we worked together on years ago, and as we left and saw it change it was an emotional thing, seeing what we fought for go a different direction with new people who replaced us. But in the years between I just remember the good times, that it is their’s now, and happy for the opportunities it gave me for future work and friendships. Hope you think of your time the same way
Andrew, what you say about the emotion as it changes was likely felt as well by the folks YOU took over from at newspaper. We all put some of ourselves into whatever endeavour we pursue, and often feel the loss when that part is eclipsed by subsequent changes.
Mr. Schwarz, I believe that we make our own luck, and it certainly appears to be so for you. You have been good at it, and I wish you the best. As for PW, I have been a subscriber since I first became aware of the magazine, and it is a good one. PW, collectively, is also making its own luck. I just hope it is good luck. I will continue to read and subscribe as PW morphs into whatever the future brings. You and PW and LAP have all helped me to become a better woodworker.
Congratulations. I hope you find the future you seek – I have a sneaky feeling you will. I met you many years ago at a Lie Nielsen event in Philadelphia and you were very kind and supportive to a fledgling woodworker. Again, best of luck and best wishes.
I’ve noticed the changes in the magazine and I’m glad to see that confirmed. Thanks for the heads up.
Best of luck. Your integrity has always been evident and you’ve now shown a touch of class most of us wish we had. It’s been a great run.
Chris, congrats! It’s a bummer to lose your content, but as a dad, business owner and human being, I totally understand the decision. If anyone here would like to reach out to the Popular Woodworking editorial staff, we’d love to hear from you – firstname.lastname@example.org.
Beware of withdrawal symptoms; stay out of singles bars and away from dating sites until full recovery from them. And what about us? Now what will we do?
Given the nature previous venture at the LAP building, hitch up your tube-top and shorty-shorts and stock up on glitter?
Good luck Chris. Enjoy filling the extra time.
I am sure you feel like a weight is off your shoulder. It can be really soul-sucking to contribute to something in which you no longer believe.
I did enjoy the longer-form posts you wrote for them. Maybe you allowed yourself a little more freedom because your posts there seemed to be a little more “general” in scope, and weren’t confined to the mission/happenings at LAP. So if you end up writing more posts for LAP, even if they are beyond the scope of LAPs “mission”, I would welcome that.
Chris I have to say rhat I did not come to know you through Popular Woodworking, I first came to knowledge of you through your Lie-Nielsen videos and thru them to your Lost Art Press connection and Crucible and only then to Popular Woodworking (newsstand pulp has never drawn me into any subject). I only see your career to date as all encompassing within the ‘Woodworking Universe’ and will continue following you in your future endeavors.
As a long time reader and a one time student (sawhorse) let me say that while I do not always agree with you, you always make me think. There is no higher praise I can offer a writer.
Surprised it took you this long. I honestly expected you to cut ties with them a year or two back. Not a bad thing or a good thing….. just that the magazine is certainly not what it once was with you there. I plan to keep my subscription, unless it slides dramatically down from here…. but it is without question not the same publication it was ten years ago. I was optimistic when Brendan showed up, and that didn’t pan out either. Hope they figure out what they are doing over there.
Welp, I just jumped off of the fence.
I have noticed a change at PW already. When a good percentage of you ads are for viagra clones and miracle cholesterol herbs, instead of LV or LN type companies…SMH.
I truly hope you can maintain your profile in the community so when new woodworkers are looking for guidance and knowledge “the Schwarz can still be with them”.
The only thing certain in life is change – to use a hackneyed bromide which is nevertheless undeniably true. Some are inevitably imposed on us, some are made in response to impositions, some are chosen because we see another way we wish to go in life. Always be grateful that you can choose. Changes are never without mixed feelings and some degree of trepidation, but often with excitement about the future. I sense all of this in what you have written above. I wish you nothing but good things. Your many talents, integrity and hard work bode well.
Magazines have never played much part in my life, probably because they seek to be all things to a spectrum of readers. I prefer to focus on what I perceive I need to know, so books and blogs and the internet are my go-to sources. And that is why I am a fan of LAP and the blogs it serves up.
All I care about here is what’s best for you. Magazines make bad decisions (Tossing 1snugthejoiner) and alienate customers. From my perspective, PWW never reached the level and quality of LAP, so this divorce is neither unexpected nor hard for me to swallow. You are the pinnacle as woodworking mentor to me and I would guess many others. We will be out here absorbing your large existing and growing body of work. Thanks for your honesty, your passion, your talent, and misty, for presenting it as the down-to-earth human being that you are.
Sincerely big fan from Boston,
Who will be in charge of reader contests now?
I was wondering that as well 🙂
I don’t care who push’s the button on the printing machine, I will follow you no matter were you go. Keep up the good work.
Best of luck in all that you do and may you have a little fun along the way because, if you don’t have fun at work, it’s just work.
Sorry to see you go. I always enjoyed your articles. Good luck in your future
I figured this was coming, perfectly understandable. I dropped my subscription when it last came up for renewal for very similar reasons. During your tenure, I learned much and was inspired to change direction in my vision on Woodworking. Thanks for the memories popular Woodworking Magazine.
Congrats on reclaiming some of your time. It is the only currency that counts, after all.
Have you given any thought to carrying on the Anarchist’s gift guide or something similar here? It saves me a lot of time around the holidays. I point relatives who don’t know the first thing about woodworking to your blog and say ‘buy me something Chris recommends.’
Please don’t make me actually communicate with my extended family around the holidays. They scare me.
Second! My first thought when I read this was “oh no, the gift guide!”
(my most treasured gift last Christmas was a tin of Old Man Schwartz’s No Kill Tallow. My wife still can’t tell whether I’m serious, but dammit, it’s great, whereas the sweater she got me is…just another sweater)
That’s pretty funny. I also worried about the Anarchists Gift Guide.
Third that idea!
Ha! I am certain I will continue the gift guide on the LAP blog.
As long as you keep publishing books faster than I have birthdays and Christmases, I don’t think I need you to keep publishing the gift guide! At least not until I run out of shelf space.
Congratulations on the change, and best of luck. What you and John (and others) have done with LAP is inspiring. Your commitment to publishing historical woodworking information and supporting modern authors via a fair profit sharing agreement is a testament to how much you care about woodworking and the people practicing it at a hobby or a professional level.
I’m excited to see what comes next!
At least not until I run out of shelf space.
You’re a woodworker. You don’t run out of shelf space until you run out of house space. When that happens, don your Norm-belt and do the carpenter thing. 😀
Times are changing, business are evolving, this is perfectly normal. A bit sad, but normal. The point raised about old columns and blog posts is a valid one – they tend to disappear in the world of constantly changing web sites for reasons too frustrating to write about. I hope someone will be able to keep those in some safe place without causing property or copyright issues.
That must have been an easy blog to put together. “All” you had to do was repackage the pros and cons from your decision making notes. Very efficient. I hope to trek on up to the storefront sometime soon. Meanwhile, best wishes to you.
While not a friend or family member I’ve known you for years through your writings. We all grow and move to new ground. Expand your wings and fly my friend. New experiences await.
Wishing you the best of luck and fulfillment in your next chapter.
Best of luck and happiness in your future direction. I have enjoyed reading your work and about your work and will continue to do so.
Appropriate Quote for you.
Michael W. O’Brien
Valley Head, AL
— William Shakespeare, “As You Like It”, Act II Scene 1
“ Do not wait; the time will never be ‘just right’, Start where you stand, and work with whatever tools you may have at your command, and better tools will be found as you go along.”
I do like the sentiment, but it is not Shakespeare. It seems to be generally attributed to Napoleon Hill, an early self-help author (1930s).
Thank you kindly for your quote source update, my original source must have been incorrect. However, the general idea of the quote for Chris is the same.
I understand your decision completely, I made the same decision a year ago after 20 years with a company. I’ve come to trust my “inner voice” over the years no matter what other people were doing or saying. In a couple of weeks (or less) you’ll wonder why you didn’t make the decision earlier.
I wish you all the best and look forward to seeing what comes from this path. Hopefully I will get spousal permission to take one or more of you classes!
…your classes. Oops.
I think you have unfinished business and I hope that you will make the time at LAP for some of your PW type blogs. I am still waiting to hear how the work with smaller smoothers went for you, and at one time you were following playing with trestle tables…was just hoping for more. Glad you did what you did glad to see you are making your dreams come true.
Best of luck
So… you say that you weren’t happy about PW firing Megan or treating Brendan badly. As if these things were common knowledge to your audience. But I for one did not know either of these things (of course I knew Megan left, but people pursue different things all the time so I naively assumed it was her choice). And, to be honest, I feel a bit like now that you’ve hinted at something here, it would be nice to have a bit more explanation…
I have no inside information here but it is fairly clear that F&W (PWW’s parent) has been weeding out the best woodworkers from the magazine. Bob Lang, Chuck Bender and Glen Huey left a few years ago, Chris has been exiting for years, Megan is gone and Brendon lasted a few months. I assume it is expensive to have experienced woodworkers run a woodworking magazine, because they will be far less compromising on the details that matter to woodworkers….
Some were probably pushed, others left on their own. Really it is difference without distinction. The magazine has pursued a different direction, and that direction does not include its most passionate woodworkers as part of its staff.
Thank you for the explanation. You have contributed much to the learning and entertainment of me and many others for years and I deeply appreciate that work! Good luck as you move along!
Good for you, man. Teach more classes at the store!
If your content was taken down and therefore lost to future readers that would be a shame.
Your post about sharpening scrapers should be required reading for anyone struggling with this tool.
Good luck to you sir! You gotta do what feels right
BTW: My wife will miss your Xmas gift posts in December. Wait….So will I…!!!!
I’ll miss those articles. I learned quite a lot.
Thanks for the heads-up Chris. It’s always better than idle speculation.
You should be proud of your time at PW. It was a pleasure to watch you go from pukey ducks to become Charles Hayward’s lanky stepchild. I look forward to following the rest of your evolution.
Everything that exists in time runs out of time some day
Got to let go of the things that keep you tethered
Take your place with grace and then be on your way
I’m not dead yet!! This isn’t the end of my career. Might be the beginning.
It was NOT intended as a eulogy! Just a nod to your chrysalis. Besides, we both know your evolution will not be complete until you fully embrace the Late Baroque. All bow to Queen Anne!
Nice Bruce Cockburn lyric reference!
I’m adding you to my good list.
I had noticed that the magazine was sliding steadily downward since Megan and Brendan Left. Now that Chris is gone, my hopes are dashed! I really dislike the new digital delivery system BTW.
End of an era, but not surprising, best wishes all around. A lot of great “content” over there for sure. Times like tools, change; keep either in stasis and their nature changes.
Good luck Chris. I learned a lot from you and will continue to follow you at the lost art blog.
All the Best To You Chris.
It’s not just PWW. All (or most) printed magazines are struggling with declining subscribers and ad revenue. I’m sure some of the changes are reactive made by well intentioned people just trying to eek out more issues and keep the presses running. Best of luck with your continued successes with LAP!
Chris, thanks for all of your help. I began reading PW from a Norm link on the New Yankee site, enjoyed Woodworking Magazine, and made my workbench from the first “Workbenches” edition. And I immediately became a better dovetailer as a result of a couple of your tips in the Anarchist Tool Chest class in Port Townsend. Now my Lost Art Press volumes keep me busy. Hope to make it to a class at the storefront one of these days, too, since I’m not dead yet, either.
I just subscribed back to Pop Wood a few weeks ago for $18.00 for two years. I’d imagine there are massive changes at F+W Media, along with all other magazines.
Well, good for you. I know you value your time as anyone should, so getting some back without affecting you too badly is good. I’m sure after the doubts that will race around in your mind slow down, you’ll find it’ll be nice to not have that many deadlines to stare at each month.
Schwarz was replaced by The History of Wood
Go Crucible Tools! Your fearless co- leader has extra time on his hands.
For me personally PWW has never been the same since Bob Lang and Glen Huey left.
Perfectly understandable given you workload at LAP and the direction that you’re headed.
I believe that your vision to create “Woodworking Magazine” during a time of mass market woodworking magazines touting the newest unnecessary jig or machine was the seminal event that made it possible for LAP, Mortise & Tenon Magazine, etc. to be accepted and to flourish. The woodworking community is much better for your contributions at F+W Media.
Best of luck in your next chapter.
Good decision, Chris. And thanks for the story leading up to that moment. I remember watching your You Tube vids, and then catching you on Pop Wood. Eventually, I started an e-subscription to Pop Wood, and enjoyed the move towards more hand wood working.
This past June, the e-subscription delivery mechanism changed to something on-line and very Windows-centric. That doesn’t work in my Linux world, and that’s not what I subscribed to. They cancelled the subscription quickly on my request, and very professionally. Also, in that time frame I was looking at the move away from wood working and towards wood machining. I understand that machines can be useful for specific tasks – especially in a production environment. The problem is it produces pieces that have less of the soul of wood, and it moves the wood worker another layer away from the work of wood.
I wish you well in your new direction and will continue following you here!
I thought pww had a nice niche but if they are abandoning it, maybe it isn’t viable. But it seems like it is too late to move into the areas already occupied by wood, woodworker’s journal, woodsmith, woodcraft and fww. Pww may be the odd man out.
All of those magazines are the same, with the exception of FWW. PWW was closest to FWW, but is headed in a different direction now. American Woodworker was once very good, before they went all in on birdhouses and napkin holders. The one I really miss is Woodwork: A Magazine for all Woodworkers.
This matches my sense of the books exactly. AWW was knocked off the rails when it was purchased by the company that owned Reader’s Digest. I knew a guy who worked for one of the consultants involved in the sale; I mentioned to him that I thought it would not work out well and started to explain why. He interrupted to assure me that RD was “very good at content.” I stared at him blankly for a moment while my brain processed options, then just made a noncommittal grunt and dropped the subject. Miss Woodwork, miss Woodworking, will miss PWM as it was. Sic transit gloria mundi. Glad LAP and Mortise and Tenon and a few decent blogs are still around.
Sorry to hear this. You added a great deal to the magazine and to the subscribers for many years. LAP is a great success and is growing every day. Thanks for the memories!
I hope you don’t disappear! Thanks for your work to-date.
I was lucky enough to subscribe to all the woodworking magazines toward the tail end of the “golden age” when so many traditional styles were being explored, and interesting people were being interviewed. I have a shelf full of great issues gleaned from all those magazines. I threw away hundreds of substandard issues. (You put together a very good “Woodworking Magazine” yourself back in the day. I kept every one of those issues.) But the real reason I loved all the different magazines was that they stimulated my thinking and helped me form my own style of woodworking. My woodworking owes a great debt to them.
I choose to be positive about woodworking and not lament too much about the way things change. I’m retired now. My shop draws me in the morning and I can’t wait for the next project. I’m not happy if I’m not making something.
Here’s a thought. What I love about magazines is that they are printed on fairly ordinary paper and I can throw away an issue that’s not up to snuff. I’d welcome a really good magazine even if it was only published occasionally. Your content is great. You’ve got Megan and Brendan there, both seasoned publishers and editors. What do you think?
I spent 26 years working for magazines and think I have done my time. It is a difficult job – financially and mentally – with little reward.
Writing and publishing books, building furniture and teaching the occasional class is more than a full-time job. So I’m going to stick with the current plan.
Fair enough. I wish you the best of success in all your endeavors.
first met you and Megan in Cincinnati at a PW/Lee Valley event ….Huey was still there…what an assembly of “A” players !!! then in Iowa at the first shindig, where you were wandering the streets looking for an open bar, then a couple of classes in Berea…..our history goes back a long way and I expect it to continue, wherever you are……….hope to see you at the shop one of these Saturdays…………dale
Thank you for sharing your plans with us. Your work has inspired me. I look forward to more of the same in the future.
I follow the Pop Wood Mag blogs daily as well as the Schwarz blog and LAP. I guess that’s one less to look at before I start my day. Having downsized in my own business life, I certainly recognize the decision you made. Just a heads up, that space (time) you thought you’d gain will fill up with random stuff. In the end we are all pulled in a million directions because that’s who we are.
Best of luck.
I enjoy your work and the magazine.
I too have noticed the change in content recently in the last two Popular Woodworking magazines I’ve received. Luckily, my subscription ended with the last issue, and I will not be renewing. The direction the magazine is going where I am uninterested. For the longest time Popular Woodworking was my favorite magazine. I enjoyed the projects, the focus on the traditional aspect of design and technique, but it just seems to have gone cheesy now that they’ve changed editors. Like its a lessor and thinner clone of some of the other magazines geared more to the pocket hole joinery crowd. Too bad. Their Instagram last week shamelessly shilling the brand new line of Craftsman power tools just put me off a bit and confirmed that I made the right decision in letting my subscription go. I will miss the Schwarz articles in each issue, but perhaps I will find something new to fill that void as I eagerly await the expanded Anarchist Design Book.
I too enjoyed following Chris’ articles and his post on the PW blog. However I experienced the changes with PW that I began to see with Fine Woodworking Magazine. I had been a long time subscriber of FW (since the ’80s) and PW for a very long time. I have not renewed either subscription for a couple of years now for several reasons. The prime reason was I believe I out grew the value they offered to me personally. Being a long time subscriber I began to realize many articles were rehashed older articles. I suspect many publishers struggle with new and interesting content. But I learned a lot from both magazines and benefited from them for a long time.
22 years is a long run at anywhere. You did right by them and they did right by you. No harm no foul to either of you. It wouldn’t surprise me to see a future article of yours in Popular Woodworking. Now, you are under no pressure to do so.
By the way, I think we are the same age. I was born in Aug of 1968. I know I have a lot of things I want to do so I can understand you wanting to free up some of your time to pursue whatever interests you have or just working less hours per week. As best I can tell, you have worked very hard to get to where you are.
With LAP up and running, I’m not sure I would have noticed the transition unless you or Popular Woodworking had said something. Truthfully, I didn’t know you were under contract with PW. I just thought you liked writing articles and they liked publishing your work.
I ready only three woodworking magazines: Popular Woodworking, Fine Woodworking, and Mortise and Tennon. I genuinely hope all three survive into the future.
I can’t believe I’m the only conspiracy theorist here. I mean seriously, isn’t this America. Aren’t we supposed to look for the conspiracy.
My theory is, Chris is plotting something and it must be big. The timing of a lifetime of choices have come to this point. I’m sure 20 years ago he and his wife laid out a timeline so that the kids would be gone, debt would be abolished, life would be streamlined to live/work at same place, and a reign of influence has taken the broad masses, weeded out the chafe, manipulate the conversation and massaged a symbiotic relationship with his followers so that he has the time, finances and minion to realize his real goal.
He’s gonna reveal a whole new branch of craft research that he’s been hording in the back of that devious mind all these decades. There’s got to be a new branch of content coming. I think it’s spider monkeys.
He’s shown us the tools, the techniques, the styles…. Throughout it all hinted at the lifestyles of the craftsman of the time. What he hasn’t touched on is getting those apprentices that used to be so common and who would do all that drudgery work for food and a place to sleep.
Yep, he’s about to take his free time and show us the advantages of training spider monkeys to woodwork.
I mean seriously, how else could you rationalize such a decision in this glossy monitor era we survive in from a guy works hard based upon a grounded moral compass. Actions from a word man speak volumes. What you do ain’t the path we can all take but the way you do it is the way we should aspire.
P.S. – If not spider monkeys can there now be more about beer?
thanks for the update Chris, and relieved to hear you will continue to blog. In fact I am glad I will now only have to go to one source to read your blogs. It would be great if you could take all your blogs from the Popular Woodworking site and put them on yours.
I enjoy reading your blogs and one of the few I still continue to read and I find it so relevant to my areas of interest.
Thanks and look forward to reading many more of your blogs
Reblogged this on Tembuk.
You still need a hair trim dude
Sounds like you have some wood to work. Best get to it.
It’s hard to leave a job you have had for so long, I’m sure it’s been a mutually beneficial relationship. I like that you left with class, and I will continue to support both of your business!
I was never a Chris Schwarz fan and don’t much care where he ends up. However, he’s absolutely correct in that these magazines are going in the toilet! I know I’ve reduced my subscriptions and will continue to do so. Quick, let’s all build a Rouge bench on $100.00 and use some pallet wood to get it done!
Auto correct – Roubo.
I enjoyed your work at the magazine and look forward to whats to come. I built three modern campaign chests of your design this past winter; one for each of my children. While the oldest is 6 and youngest not yet 2, they’ll eventually grow into them. Cheers!
At some point in the future some simian is going to pick up a hand plane and wonder what it’s for. At that point he/she/it will search with whatever the future version of Google is and find articles and videos by, among others, Chris Schwarz. He/She/It will find these Schwarz additions logical and useful. So, for now Chris keep at it—you make a difference even now.
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