Lost Art Press

A Better Understanding of Red Oaks

Posted on by Lost Art Press
A stack of chair parts in Northern Red Oak.

I buy and process at least 900 board feet of red oak each year for chairmaking and chair classes. When chosen and cut with care, red oak can look much better than the ugly 1980s kitchen cabinets it is associated with.

But before you embrace this inexpensive and plentiful wood, here’s a quick lesson on what I look for at the lumberyard.

Most red oak in our area is from two different species: Northern red oak (Quercus rubra) and Southern red oak (Quercus falcata). These trees look nothing alike in the wild. Their leaves, bark and acorns are radically dissimilar. And the wood they produce looks different and works different. 

(We also get some Quercus velutina around here, which is also a red oak. But this particular red oak isn’t put with the other red oaks in our lumberyards. It gets its own bin that’s labeled black oak. To me it looks a lot like Northern red oak [Quercus rubra] at times. Boy, is wood confusing.)

There are a lot of red oak species out there that are sold as red oak. This blog entry can only deal with the two common ones.

Face grain of Northern red oak.

In general, most furniture makers prefer the Northern red oak. It grows slowly and has a finer grain. I find that it’s a little browner than other “red” oaks, so you don’t get as much of the pink cast that turns some people off.

You can usually identify the Northern red oak by looking at the end grain. The growth rings will be very tight – usually less than 1/16” apart (though there are exceptions I’ll discuss later). 

Southern red oak with its distinctive gray.

Southern red oak typically grows quickly. I’ve had pieces where the growth rings are 3/8” apart. The wood has a pinkish cast compared to the Northern stuff. Sometimes you will find gray stripes in the wood. Most people consider it the uglier of the two red oaks.

However, I prefer the Southern stuff for one simple reason: it’s usually stronger. 

Northern red oak (at top) can usually be identified by its color and its tight growth rings. Southern red oak (at bottom) is pinker and typically grows much faster.

The tight growth rings of the Northern red oak mean that there are a lot of pores running through each board. And these pores are filled with air. Chair parts made from Northern red oak are lightweight and can be quite fragile. I’ve had Northern red oak sticks and stretchers snap – even when the grain was dead straight. It’s simply a matter of too much air and not enough woody fibers.

The Southern red oak has fewer pores. The fibrous wood between the annular rings is heavy and springy. So thin sticks and stretchers are more likely to bend than snap.

As I’ve said many times before, however, trees are weird. Sometimes you get a Northern red oak that grew quickly and is strong. And other times you find a Southern red oak that grew slowly and produces some weak wood. 

And that’s why I remain open (but cautious) about both of the common commercial species of red oak. Choose your oak based on its color – you don’t want gray, pink and brown all clashing in one piece. And choose your oak based on what you want it to do: Buy fast-grown oak for strength; slow-grown oak for character.

— Christopher Schwarz

10x photo of Northern red oak.
10x photo of Southern red oak.

37 thoughts on “A Better Understanding of Red Oaks”

  1. I’m not in the US so red and white oak have always meant little to me. What makes an oak species either red or white?

    1. There are two important differences. The color. Red oak has a pink cast. White oak is a brown-gray.

      The most important difference is structural. In white oak, the pores are clogged with tyloses. So the wood is water- and rot- resistant. In red oaks, the pores are not clogged. The wood degrades quickly when exposed to moisture.

  3. Near our summer cabin there is an old 100+ year old farmstead preserved. The walls are constructed of logs that are dovetailed together at the corners, every log angled to fit between the one above and the one below. This was a completely different dovetailing than what I’ve done, presumably only used in fixed structures at this size, but I wondered if there was anything else using this method. I think it would have to be “glued” one stick at a time. Megan in Mechanicals responded to the my email and picture, I don’t see an option to include a picture here.

    1. There are many types of cabin joints. Half and full dovetails both look impressive but aren’t complex. There is a fellow named Noah who has tons of videos online. I think his company is called Handmade Houses. He explains a lot about the joinery in some of the videos. Hope this info helps.

  4. The Southern Red oak pics look a lot like some of the Live Oak wood that I have cut up. It has a lot of the same characteristics, but rarely any kind of straight grain. One thing I’m certain of, it’s nearly impossible to split with a froe. Any experience with the stuff?

    1. Yes. Live oak is an amazing outlier of American oaks. Impossible to split. Impossibly strong. Difficult to dry. I have a mallet made from the stuff.

      Oh and it stays green all year round….

      1. After 18 years in Florida, I have lots of experience with the “ever-green” Live oak. The specimen in my front yard is responsible for at least 4 gutter cleaning sessions a year. They are sometimes majestic, but often look like something from the mind of Dr. Seuss. Cut trees are easy to come by and I have some that has been drying for about a year, perhaps suitable for a painted chair.

      2. Southern Live Oak is so tough it was used for war ships during the Revolutionary War. That’s what the USS Constitution is made of earning the ship’s nickname Old Ironsides.

      3. I imagine there are a few people here following Leo Sampson’s YouTube channel detailing the reconstruction of Tally Ho, an old English sailboat, in Port Townsend, Washington, using a wide variety of techniques and disciplines, including a tremendous amount of hand tool woodworking

        (I’m not a boat guy, but the woodworker/builder in me is completely absorbed by the craftsmanship and camaraderie so well displayed in Leo’s camerawork, editing, and storytelling.)

        Anyway, there’s an incredible episode where he goes down to Georgia to visit a guy who has built an absolutely incredible Rube Goldberg sawmill in order to procure enough southern live oak for the curving structure of the boat. Just this video alone will teach you so much about that species, the sawyer’s unique and intense craftsmanship, and CS’s brand of an Anarchy. And then you’re gonna want to watch a lot more. It’s real rabbit hole type stuff.

        (I think this is the first one I watched, after it was sent to me by a guy in my shop who’s really into boats. Many have followed.)

        https://youtu.be/pH37Dep0cvU

  5. Gotta admit Chris, this post took me by surprise. I’ve always considered fine grained wood superior to course grained. Thanks for clarifying. This is very helpful and probably explains a couple of red oak (northern) issues I’ve had in the past.

  6. Very interesting article. Is there a particular borderline as to how far South the Northern variety grows or vice versa with the Southern variety?

  7. There are a lot of pin oak trees in my rural neighborhood. A neighbor had a tree blow over last year. When I talked to him about it, he thought his brother might be interested in getting lumber from it. I was a little skeptical because, based on the way they grow, with tons of side branches. I thought it was probably full of knots. But it’s been sitting there for a year and he finally started to cut it up and found that about the middle half was void. Seems like firewood now. It’s really one of the trees I dislike because the leaves (and there are lots of them) seem to go everywhere and don’t compost very quickly. Although it’s probably politically incorrect, when I went to forestry camp back in the ’60s, the mnemomic I learned that white oak leaves had rounded lobe points (like musket balls) and red oak trees had pointed lobes (like Indian arrows).

  8. This why I wanted to stain the chair. Guess I should have said that lol. I love red oak but what do ya do to make it pop other than painting it which I have had enough of for awhile. Have painted the last 3 or 4 pieces kinda sick of it for a bit, Anyways take care

  9. I think I remember you once referring to red oak as a “weed” 🙂 was that just an offhanded comment at the time or have you changed your opinion?

    1. Thomas Lie-Nielsen famously said: “A plane is nothing more than a jig for a chisel.”

      My comment is something like that. It’s true. But also pointing to something else.

    2. We consider Live Oak to be an over grown weed/bush. But the developers keep placing them in front yards of developments here.

  10. Looking at the USDA charts in The Stick Chair Book, northern red oak measures up considerably stronger than southern red oak in terms of shear strength and modulus of rupture. Would that only be true when comparing samples of similar size growth rings (i.e. does growth pattern trump species)?

    1. I have no idea is the FPL chooses samples when it comes to their growth rate. Data on trees can be both simultaneously true and false. Trees are weird.

      1. “Trees are weird.”

        That kinda says it all. Maybe we should all write that up on the wall in our shops.

        Rules, schmules. Pay attention as you go and make good decisions based not only on what textbooks, and teachers have told you, but also on what personal experience has shown and what that one particular weird anachronistic hunk of matter sitting in front of you on your bench is telling you right now.

  11. Apparently, someone started growing northern red oak in Ireland, where it is now listed as an invasive species they are trying to eradicate.

    2. I lived in Ireland for 20 years or more, I left in 2012. There are virtually no trees in Ireland, it would be difficult to conceive of any oak species in Ireland being considered invasive. My wife and I used to drive for hours to find a wood to walk in that was bigger than the supermarket.

      1. The commonest invasive non-native trees are beech and sycamore, which were often planted for timber.

      2. Ugh. Ireland’s forests. So depressing.

        Ireland used to be 80% forest. Now it’s 11%, most of which is managed swaths of non-native, fast growing, regularly harvested Sitka spruce used in the timber industry.

        If you want to get bummed out about poorly managed forests (the Amazon, anyone?), google “Ireland forests.” But you can start here:

        https://theconversation.com/ireland-has-lost-almost-all-of-its-native-forests-heres-how-to-bring-them-back-195511

        (Don’t get me started on colonialism.)

  12. Red Oak makes a good banjo, but it’s hard to talk customers into because of their 80’s kitchen memories.

    1. Aaron, I think you meant to write, “… because of their 80’s kitchen nightmares.” 🙂

    2. Steve Martin, on the banjo: “People always ask me the difference between a banjo and a guitar. You see a banjo has a body that mimics a drum head, this round pot that projects sound outward. And the guitar… will get you laid.”

    3. Have you considered that maybe it’s hard to talk customers into it because it’s a banjo? 😂

      Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I love banjos. I considered taking up banjo during Covid lockdown but I decided to continue being mediocre only on guitar instead of both guitar and banjo.

  13. This is great information. Now I can be confident in my choices of red oak. Thanks!

  14. I wish I could say that this article changed my mind about red oak. The first real woodworking experience I had was in a university sculpture class. It put me off of woodworking for several years. I was working with the red oak available at the big box stores in Georgia. I hated everything about it…the way it smelled when it was machined was nauseating to me. I haven’t used it for anything but firewood since (and only that because the red oaks in my yard died before any of the other oaks…even the craggy post oaks. White oak, on the other hand, it wonderful and super plentiful here in north Texas.

  15. In Spring of 2023, I cleared an area of back yard for a new shop. Sent 17 9′ logs of Southern Red Oak to the mill and received back 145 9′ boards in 1×4, 1×6, 1×8, and 4×4. All is currently rack and stickered and air drying. Look forward to using on chairs in about 7 months. When fresh from the mill this stuff is HEAVY!

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