Lost Art Press

Roughed in from Roughsville

Posted on by Lost Art Press

Nothing irritates me more than when I hire a tradesperson, and they spend most of the time criticizing the worker who was there before them.

When Lucy and I bought our first house, it had been essentially condemned. All utilities had been shut off. The old coal furnace had been tagged by the city as unlawful. And there were no HVAC ducts. Not much wiring. But lots of odd pipes.

When our kitchen sink stopped draining, I did everything my 25-year-old brain could manage. Then we called a plumber. He spent 30 minutes lambasting every fitting, fixture, elbow and what-not put below the sink by his priors.

“This is roughed in from roughsville,” he told us.

At the time, all I could think was: “I’m paying this guy $100 an hour for a historical critique of our sink?”

Later, as I started making furniture for a living, that sort of (P)artisan Attitude started to piss me off. I concluded that these guys were trying to establish superiority among their peers. Trying to convince me that they were the holders of the “True P-Trap” knowledge. And that I had called the right guy. (I say “guy” here because I have never had a woman tradesperson behave this way.)

Mostly, it convinced me that the tradesperson in question had some sort of Napoleon complex. And probably wasn’t a good fit for me.

The same thing happens in woodworking. But it’s weirder. Students ask us what we think of other professional woodworkers. Some are so bold as to say, “Give us some gossip. What do you think of Frank Klausz?” Others are sneakier. “Have you found David Charlesworth’s tertiary bevel to be effective?”

I’ll have none of it. I flat out refuse to criticize other woodworkers. Or their work. I don’t know why they do what they do. Maybe they were trained that way. Maybe their mother told them to hold a chisel like a pencil. It makes no difference – if it works.

Also, and this is important, I’m usually clueless as to what the student is trying to get from me. I try to read everything I can get my hands on about woodworking. So, I am up to date on the magazines and current books. But I don’t know diddly about the YouTubers and their techniques.

I don’t have time to watch 40-minute video episodes on making a firewood rack with a radical dadoing technique. Or a five-podcast arc on sharpening a “unicorn bevel.” I’ve got chairs to build so I can sell them and pay one daughter’s tuition bills and the other daughter’s wedding bills (and pay them gladly, I might add).

But maybe I’m looking at this the wrong way.

Back in the 1980s, Fine Woodworking magazine pitted the techniques of Frank Klausz (Hungarian-trained) versus Ian Kirby (British-trained). It seemed that every issue the two would go back and forth about how this one European technique was crap/genius or this British technique was superior/outhouse fodder.

Readers loved it.

Klausz told me years later that it was all a ruse. Like “kayfabe” in professional wrestling. Ian and Frank would talk on the phone about how to rile up the editors and the readers. Which meant more money and exposure for them.

Hey Megan! I think your dovetailing method sucks. Fight me.

— Christopher Schwarz

55 thoughts on “Roughed in from Roughsville”

  2. I used to freelance through my own corporation and had to change accountants several times. Every time, I’d get a spiel about how the previous accountant was doing it all wrong.

  3. Hey Chris to this day I get tradesmen doing the same thing. Needless to say they don’t return.

  4. WWF! Wild Woodworking Federation. Careful Chris, I hear Megan has a mean move off the top rope.

  5. “At the time, all I could think was: “I’m paying this guy $100 an hour for a historical critique of our sink?”

    Later, as I started making furniture for a living, that sort of (P)artisan Attitude started to piss me off. I concluded that these guys were trying to establish superiority among their peers. ”

    I think you are missing another explanation. It’s not necessarily a “historical critique”.

    I think the plumber is setting your expectations – once he’s actually seen the setup.

    You call a plumber and say the sink doesn’t drain. That puts one picture in the plumber’s mind (simple clog).

    Plumber gets there and sees that in fact all the piping has to be replaced.

    The job will take longer than maybe previously thought by the plumber. And I’m absolutely certain that there are customers who can’t fathom why the entire setup has to be replaced – just unclog it – and will complain when told the job will take longer and cost more than either may have imagined initially.

    I’ve had a lot of work done to my house and everything sounds simple. Like “Replace a window” ( and the framing for the old window was not up to code – but you don’t know that until you open things up) or “replace the door” (and it turns out the jambs have to be replaced as well as the casing). So I’m very familiar with the caveats I get once a contractor has been to my house a few times. There are often surprises.

  6. Here’s another example that happened to me:

    Called the contractor – gutter has to be replaced. Simple job.

    Ok so the contractor (who is extremely good) goes up there and tells me that the roofing guys did a lousy job on the roof along the edges where the gutter goes. They did it wrong – a horrible job. Ice dams could easily form. The left off (I think it was) flashing.

    I now know to:

    1) Never use that roofing contractor again and

    2) Tell anyone I know who is looking to replace a roof not to use that contractor.

    I was grateful that the contractor castigated the roofing contractor’s work.

  7. I agree this kind of behavior is very annoying and non-productive. Having worked in the electrical trade for some time in the past, I would show up to a customers site and they would describe the problem and I would go about finding the root cause. A lot of times, it was because the original job wasn’t done the “right way” and I would either rework or replace the offending part or technique. Usually I would keep this to myself unless the customer needed this information in order to maybe check other similar issues or have us check into this for them.

    With electrical work, improper non-code compliant work can be at best annoying and at worst dangerous. That being said I would make no commentary on how unprofessional the previous electricians work was, I would only say this is wrong and needs to be checked out and go from there. Time is money in the electrical trade and when you have multiple calls in one day you hardly have time to sit around and chitchat critiquing someone else’s work. I would have the conversation in my own head though.

    1. My electrician told me he had seen everything under the sun, old houses, shoddy cabling added by bungling amateurs (dangerous). He came in, took a look, and said that this was about what to expect.

      He had told me early on that we would have to replace all wiring. He also told me why some things were done they way he’d do them and when asked also the reasons and history.

  11. I’ve found the same thing with dentists, oddly enough. My current dentist is the only one I’ve ever had who didn’t start our relationship with a long disquisition about how badly my previous dentists had screwed up this or that. I don’t have the faintest idea what good or bad dental work looks like, so all I heard in those conversations was “ooh, this is going to be expensive and painful, and when I retire, you get to do it all again!”

    1. Ha! I chose my current dentist for the same reason! He spoke admiringly of some dental work I’d had completed years ago.

  13. Hahaha all TOO familiar!!! Work on any home as a GC and the “unprofessional do it yourself handyman’s always have something negative to say”; but when you hire a GC or master electrician (or anyone else charging you 100+/hr) you tend not to see any of this. Thanks for the morning laugh Mr Schwarz!

  15. It’s been a long while, but if I recall Megan’s dovetailing evolution she learned from you Chris… Self criticism? You feeling okay? 😉

  16. Hi Chris,
    Love your witty humor, just the good thing to start my day.
    Thanks.

  17. The advice I’ve been given, and give, is be careful who you trash because that person could be the one writing the check.

    I’m reminded of a couple epiphanies that occurred during my learning journey (not only woodworking). The first is perspective. My perspective on a Thing is not necessarily the same perspective of the person there before, or after. A different perspective will impact choices. The take away is that different is not bad, though may be suboptimal for the immediate issue. However, knowing about perspective is not fool proof protection against F bombs.

    The second epiphany is be mindful of systems of work. There is no one true way, though a 3am trip to White Castle often seems that way at the time. When I evaluate a practice, technique, or advice, I always try to get a sense of the giver’s system of work. Using piecemeal advice usually fails unless you are consistent in your own work. An easy example is marking dovetails for the saw cut. Is the teacher using a single bevel knife? A thin mechanical pencil? A regular pencil? Do they advise to cut half or all of the pencil line? If you get instruction from multiple sources using different marking techniques, you are going to have a rough row to hoe before nice dovetails happen.

    I guess I have a lot to say about this stuff. I certainly didn’t intend such a long post.

  18. Yep, unfortunately it sounds quite common to have a worker who complains about the previous worker. I have seen more than one. Some times it seems they want to say that their way works better for them.

  19. Monday night joinery slugfest only lasted a few weeks on TBS if I remember correctly. I heard a few joiners were caught with magnetic jigs and the public lost interest.

  25. Most people that do watch woodworking videos on YouTube never do woodworking. They’re just living their lives vicariously through Ron Cosman and others wile sitting on the couch.

  26. Well, I guess I can comment here that I guess I think Megan’s dovetails suck too. I’ve never cut a dovetail joint in my life and honestly, I don’t know who Megan is. I’d have to bet my next months disability check that Megan’s woodworking skills are better than mine. I learned some time ago that I could learn something (usually a lot of something) when I could listen in on professionals presenting their trade skills. Tell me about your dovetails.

  27. But Chris, how are you going to have a beefy magazine if the obligatory dovetail article said “however you cut your dovetails is fine; if you aren’t happy with the results, practice”
    I’m thinking about a drinking game; every mention of dovetails in my morning consumption of media deserves a wee dram.

  28. I can’t remember who said it, maybe Hofi, maybe Ross, but the gist was “you criticize other’s work at the anvil, with your hammer.”

    1. Yes…And with enough blows, the “hard boys” can use it to get the kindling going to light the forge. ( real thing btw )

  29. One personality type that I just cannot stand is the “Know-it-all.”

    I have encountered quite a few in my life, professionally and personally. I avoid them whenever possible. Many are quick to criticize others.

    One recent one in particular has developed a system that is so complex, he has a hard time getting anyone to work with him. “The definition of genius is taking the complex and making it simple.” ― Albert Einstein

    But also, having repaired many pieces of Asian-made furniture of questionable quality and workmanship, I just have kept my mouth shut.

  30. If it works, it works. Far down the west coast of South America in Chile, an archaeologist discovered the oldest rectangular mortises known, on the order of 13,000 years old. The archaeologist referred to these as “needle eye” holes, so no one has really picked up the various implications, e.g. who needed rectangular mortises back then, or what did they cut those mortises, or did they even HAVE a work bench? Right now I am trying to pick up enough muscle memory to turn a couple of stretchers to restore a small hand made rocking chair my daughter picked up. At my age, muscle memory comes slowly and grudgingly. After looking at hours of video and volumes of text, the only lesson I really have learned is that “method” is less important than application.

  31. Worse yet, I worked for a gentleman (I’m being very polite) who loved woodworking but was clueless when it came to any technique or hands on experience & desperately needed someone to run the shop floor. Through almost every procedure, I had to initially spend half an hour explaining what I was doing & why. The following day after he studied up on YouTube, I had to spend another half an hour explaining why I was doing it differently than what he viewed on video. The day after that, with more studying & videos under his belt & the vanity of an expert opinionnaire, the debate raged on for another 30 minutes. After a very long day of adult babysitting & decompressing that night, 2 separate 45 minute long You Tube videos are sent by text message for my review. The following morning when asked if I reviewed his ideals of genius by video, I simply explained that I watched the first 5 minutes of both. Now on the fourth day of insanity & increased criticism, I intentionally kept the conversation short & sweet by noting how it doesn’t take me 45 minutes to come to the conclusion of stupidity & as an hourly employee, I wasn’t getting paid to review that same stupidity while I was at home. Within a month, I decided my sanity was far too important & he’s been running an ad for my previous position, nonstop for 2 years.

  32. Working in the attic of my remodeled-20-years-ago 1930’s house, I noticed some shoddy framing and was cursing that lowly, no-good framer. Then my wife walked by and said, “Didn’t YOU do that 20 years ago?” Hmm, that WAS just about the time I started working as carpenter… DOH!

    When you point the finger at someone else there are still 3 fingers pointing back at you.

  33. “Be kind”….Bit of a challenge, for what I saw today on a Uber High Dollar home. I was “invited” to repair the “repairs” done by another firm. (I’m just a man playing a Dude, pretending to be another Dude) Needless to say, I do find that tile grout can be a fine method of making a Ceruse finish ( it has both color and a binder ); it does not work as a nail hole filler on trim work. If you can’t do good work, then don’t charge money for it. BTW, I fully agree with Chris about the Frank/Ian thing. It was a the same as getting Ford/Chevy guys to argue.

  34. I only talk about the stuff that reminds me of my grandfather…the stove hood vent that went down the wall into the basement and then about 15 feet to the chimney, and was boosted there by a squirrel cage fan that was wired to a switch at the top of the basement stairs with orange extension cord… 😀

  35. “it convinced me that the tradesperson in question had some sort of Napoleon complex”

    I work in a shop like that–everybody critiques everybody else’s work and ideas. It’s so obvious they’re so insecure about themselves……

    It’s like wearing a Prada suit made out of barbed wire.

    Sad!

  36. I have found myself doing a job, or repairing a job where I felt annoyed and mystified by by the work I was re-doing. “Why in the world would anyone do this like this?! “. Over the course of the job things would dawn on me, issues would come into focus…oh, I see what they were dealing with….

    Now when I see some goofy bit of work I say to myself “hold on a minute, there maybe more than meets the eye here…

  37. you said “roughed in from Roughsville” in an instructional video years back and now i know where it came from. thanks!

  38. Sounds like Klausz and Kirby were taking a page from the Stones/Beatles playbook, good on them.

  39. More years ago than I care to count I attended a trade school and they had a visiting instructor by the name of Ralph P. Bone come in to teach a business class (among others). One of the things he taught was that when you run down someone in your own field, you may think you are elevating yourself by comparison, but in reality you are tearing down the reputation of everyone in the field.

  40. Every time I change farriers, the first thing the new guy says when looking at my horses’ feet is “Who in the heck did THIS job?!???”

  41. I tried to watch a famous woodworker on YouTube. He spent nine minutes of his 24 minute video talking about woodworking. The most boring nine minutes of my life. Not sure if he ever did get to that woodworking.

  42. Now isn’t the story of Kirby and Klausz some kind of gossip, too? Love it. More,

  43. I think most people would be better served practicing a joint or making stuff rather than watching Youtube vids about how somebody else does it. I know I am. . . .

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